Mr. John Maddex: Welcome to the concluding episode of “Transformation: An Orthodox Look at Same-Sex Attraction.” Now, if you haven’t listened to the previous three episodes, I would encourage you to do so. They’ll lay the important groundwork for our concluding remarks. It’s been our goal that this be a positive and forward-looking assessment for those of us who call the Orthodox Church home. The key points of our documentary revolved around hearing and understanding the Church’s teaching, listening to the stories of real Orthodox people with same-sex attraction, and our Lord’s command that we “love one another.”

In our final episode, we want to explore what we can do to bridge the gaps that sometimes seem too wide to bridge. But of course, do we even want to create that bridge? One gap that desperately needs bridging is the gap between young people and adults on the subject of same-sex attraction. Our faithful Orthodox teens in youth groups and camps are more and more being influenced by social media and school. They have friends who are gay, bisexual, transgender, and they don’t understand the Church’s position.

We talked with Antiochian camp director, Fr. Chris Shadid, and asked him if he has noticed a change in how young people are feeling about these issues, and especially the Church’s teaching about them.

Fr. Chris Shadid: I don’t know that I have seen much change in terms of how they feel, but definitely in how they express themselves. And I would say that we’ve seen it a lot in the last year, especially since COVID, with young people primarily not being able to attend church as often; they have not been able to attend Teen SOYO or retreats or go to confession as often, and what we saw a lot in the last year is just a lot of people having a lot more questions, and questioning a lot more the Church’s teachings. That’s definitely been a big thing that we have noticed, and I think part of that has been away from the Church so much, yet they have been surrounded by social media and all kinds of other influences that are teaching them other things, not with the Church.

Mr. Maddex: Yeah, and the Church’s position is a minority position for sure in our society.

Fr. Chris: Of course.

Mr. Maddex: And is it primarily in this area of same-sex attraction, or are there other areas where they are expressing some type of concern about the Church’s position on things?

Fr. Chris: Yeah, I think there’s a lot of areas. I mean, obviously same-sex attraction is a big one. I would also say gender identity is a big one; gay marriage is a big one—of course, that’s same-sex attraction. Abortion is a big issue, and even some politics. I know some people have expressed questions as to: What does the Church say about politics? How involved should we be?—especially, I think, in the last year, the last year being an election year, and a very contested one at that. So we’ve definitely seen a lot of—call it “hot topic” issues with the Church, and I’m just thankful that we’ve had a lot of opportunities, whether it’s through Zoom calls or through camping programs in the last several months, to reconnect with our young people and with our campers and get to have some of those discussions with them.

Mr. Maddex: Yeah, I mean, if we can’t have the discussions, we’re basically throwing up our hands and giving up. On the one hand, it’s a blessing, isn’t it, that we have young people who are thinking, who are processing, who are taking it seriously. So they’re not just writing it off; they’re saying, “Hey, wait a minute. Help us understand why it’s this way and not the other way.”

Fr. Chris: Absolutely, and I’ll tell you, whenever I talk to young people, or really talk to anybody about these kinds of topics, I thank them for asking questions. Number one, it shows that they care; number two, it shows that they actually want to learn and understand; and, number three, it helps me personally, because when I get asked questions I have to think of answers, or if I don’t know the answers, which is often the case, I have to go find them. So I’ll ask people much smarter than myself and I get to learn a lot through the process as well, so I think it’s healthy for us to ask questions as long as we are asking—and this is something I try to share—as long as we are asking questions in respectful and loving ways, and also asking questions in a way that our minds and our hearts are opened to truly listening to the other person—not that we have to agree with them, but that we are actually listening to what they have to say.

Mr. Maddex: From a pastoral perspective, Fr. Anthony Perkins agrees. I asked him what he recommends in communicating with our young people.

Fr. Anthony Perkins: Yeah, well, for one, listen to what it is they’re really saying. We have these—most of us, I think—because we are at least consumers of culture war type of stuff and the categories and framings and things like this—those really do set the agenda for us. So we’re not coming at this with an open—all radars up, so to speak. So sometimes we’re hearing things that they’re not saying. They’re expressing them in a way that says things that—we’re hearing things that they don’t mean to say, and also that they’re just testing. So we have to be consistent, but that conversation—it should be a conversation: “What do you mean by that? Oh, were you saying this?”

So keep it like a family conversation, because we’re training these people to take our place. And you do that by showing them how wonderful it is to be part of this, and—I don’t have better words for this—to take ownership of it. I don’t mean by “owning” it; I mean by being a part of it and completely buying into it. That doesn’t mean they’re going to buy into it with the same words we do. So when they say, “Why don’t y’all just chill out about this? Let people dress how they want” and so on, let’s listen and say, “To what extent are they right? And then how do I explain what the limits are in a way that they can hear me?” And I’ve got to make sure I actually know what the limits are, because we get people throwing around canons all the time and misapplying them and misapplying the very idea of canons. So we have to make sure of that as well.

We are at a very interesting time in our culture, where this back-and-forth between chaos and order that Jordan Peterson describes so well… We’re at a place where we’re just figuring out: Well, which of these limits can we remove and still have a functioning society? This is not even a pendulum; it’s always—there’s always going to be give and take. One of the things that I celebrate about our general culture that we haven’t lost—I’m convinced we haven’t lost it to soft totalitarianism or anything like that, although it is always constantly in danger—is that we do have the ability to continue talking about things, to hear things that make us uncomfortable, to figure out together where the truth is. We are what Jonathan Rauch calls a “constitution of knowledge.” We are that in the Church as well; we are not just a set of dogmas that we stamp everybody by.

We are a Church that lives, that knows the truth of the dogmas and lives in Christ together, and continually—it’s not changing; I’m not trying to call for some kind of… Again, I’m not here to reform the Church. I’m describing what I see over time. The history of the councils, we like to pretend that it was: We’ve got the seven councils. Boom, boom, boom; stamp, stamp, stamp. But when you look at the actual history of the councils, it was much messier than that, because you had counter-councils and things, and over time it became clear: This is the Church; that wasn’t the Church. This was always the Church; that was never the Church.

And we’re going through one of those periods of time, and it’s incredibly disconcerting, especially for people who need that kind of certainty. But one of the things that I’m called to say is that it’s going to be okay; that God is in control of this; that God does not forsake his Church; that it doesn’t require any of our ability, whether pastors or cultural warriors or whatever your called vocation is: it doesn’t require our individual perfection, our individual ability to say the perfect words at the perfect time in order for God’s will to be done on this earth, that God’s will that “all be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth,” that that be done; that it is going to be okay.

And also, our children are going to be okay. So when you give that up—and this was… In our world today it’s July 15, so that was last Sunday’s gospel: “Hey, give it to God.” And then roll up our sleeves and have these conversations, because the water that our kids are swimming in is different than what we were used to. So, like the sudden onset gender dysphoria: that’s a real danger, and that’s one of the ones where parents gently have to say, “No, here’s the limit. Here’s how we’re going to deal with this.” And if you want to have that conversation now or down the road, we certainly can, because so far we’ve just been talking about… a conversation that’s really a generation old, at least.

The actual conversation that our kids are having, it’s much different. Even that, it’s going to be okay, because these short-term things that are doing tremendous damage and we have to protect our kids from, it’s being corrected as we speak.

Mr. Maddex: Andrew Williams says we need to know our audience and start with showing our teens the beauty of a life in Christ, building on the presupposition that there is a God who loves us and a Savior who died for us and a Church where we grow in Christ.

Mr. Andrew Williams: There would be no point in going out to somebody who has no Orthodox experience, no Christian experience, and saying, “You’re not supposed to have sex with another man.” Why? Why on earth would they see anything in that? You say, “Because it says so in the Bible.” Well, why? So what? And it’s the wrong end! It’s the wrong end of the argument; it’s the wrong place to start.

Mr. Maddex: Putting the cart before the horse, for sure.

Mr. Williams: Exactly, exactly. So we don’t start there. We don’t start there; we show the vision of Christ, the beautiful vision of Christ, who is the Lover of mankind. That’s where we start. And then we show how all of the other things follow that, and that’s the proper context. It’s not about rules; it’s about heaven. And it’s not about politics; it’s about souls.

Mr. Maddex: But back to Fr. Chris Shadid. He says he talks a calm and supportive approach with the campers at Antiochian Village, where he and the other priests and counselors attempt to listen carefully and get at the underlying reason for the questions.

Fr. Chris: If I enter a discussion and I have my guard up and I’ve got all my answers ready, then it’s not really a conversation. I’m not going there to listen; I’m going there to argue, and we’re not going to accomplish anything. So I think it’s important, when we have these conversations, to really kind of set the ground rules and say, “Okay, let’s both be open here and truly listen to each other and try to challenge ourselves a little bit, myself included, to try to hear what somebody else is thinking and feeling and where they’re coming from.

Mr. Maddex: Communication is a tricky endeavor. Each party has their agenda, their prepared speeches, their desired outcomes. And these things can hinder true empathetic listening, especially with a young person who is often coming to these questions from a heart of love and concern for a friend, or perhaps have been challenged themselves by friends who know they are Christians.

Fr. Chris: I think the way we communicate is so important. I remember learning, years ago, that the percentage of communication that is actually words is like seven percent, whereas the rest of it is all body language and tone of voice, so that’s huge. So I think it’s really important for us to sit down and be on the same level as much as we can, be open—and when I say, “Be open,” I’ll tell you something I learned from His Grace Bishop John who’s up in Worcester, years ago when I was in college, he taught me: Don’t have a desk between you and the person. When you’re talking to someone, just you and that person, then the less between us, the less physical boundaries, the more open we can be. So something as simple as that can really make a big difference.

I think we need to start by making sure we’re meeting them where they’re at; we’re being open with them; we’re being open and loving, using a calm and approachable voice and tone of voice. But I also think it’s important for us to be firm in what we believe and what the Church teaches, to not waver from that in any way, but that means we can also sit there and listen to them. I think it’s important to even start by asking questions, because if we just come into a conversation and say, “Okay, here’s what the Church teaches: boom, boom, boom,” then they’re going to tune us out because we’re not listening, and rightfully so. But if we can sit down and say, “What questions do you have?” and really try to dig to the root of it—“Why do you have these questions? What experiences have you had, or friends that you had who are struggling with these things, that’s making you question these things?” And if we can really kind of do that and seek to meet each individual where they are, then we can meet them and then hopefully work with them to learn more.

Mr. Maddex: Wow, that’s really a good point, because everyone probably has a story back in their mind that is the reason they’re raising the question—it’s a friend and they’re trying to introduce them to church, but that’s a barrier, so: “I need help here. Why do we teach this?” Or maybe it’s a relative or a loved one, and we shouldn’t just assume that they’re coming to it with a chip on their shoulder. There is probably a back story that we just need to take the time to learn.

Fr. Chris: Yeah, and, you know, a lot of people—all of us, really—we all have different experiences, and we have no idea what other people have been through. We have no idea what they have experienced, and the fact is, if you and I both experienced the same thing, we might experience it in totally different ways. So it’s important for us, going into these conversations, to be open to that and really try to understand them and realize: Maybe they had a painful past with a religious leader or with a particular church, or maybe they’ve been—God forbid—abused in some way in their past, and all these things are affecting how they feel, what they’re thinking, what’s leading to confusion or questions. And those things—the more we can understand, the more we can meet people. And when we feel understood, we’re definitely going to be more open to each other.

And another point, too—forgive me for rambling, but another point that I think is important is that when we sit down with somebody about those conversations is really laying that groundwork and saying, “I’m going to be honest. You might not like all the answers that I might share with you, and that’s okay. But it’s important: I just ask that you just open your mind and your heart, and you listen to what I have to say, just as I’m going to try to open my mind and my heart and listen to what you have to say.” And even asking that person, “If you feel like I’m not listening to you, please tell me, and I will try my best to do better.” I think it’s important, too, to open with prayer, and even close with prayer, and just ask God to descend, or to send his Holy Spirit upon us, to open our minds and our hearts so that we can really understand and listen to each other, because if we don’t have understanding, if we’re not listening, or if we don’t feel understood or listened to, then forget it—we’re not going to get anywhere.

Mr. Maddex: Let’s face it: we’re afraid. Our worst nightmare is that our son or daughter will come home with the pronouncement that he or she is gay, or bisexual, or transgender. Perhaps we think that’s the end of the story. But we need to be patient, just like Christ is patient with us. Listen to this real-life testimonial from a 17-year-old budding artist who had an assignment in class to write an essay about her motivation for her artwork. She has in the past identified as bisexual. She has kindly agreed to read her essay to us.

Artist: I felt like I was spiraling after coming out of an abusive household, getting out of a toxic relationship, and dealing with long-term mental health problems, to where motivation was not a reality for me any more. I could barely get out of bed each day to go do simple tasks, like eat breakfast or take a shower. I could not even move to my desk and work on the thing I love to do most, which is animation and art. I always felt exhausted.

I hit rock-bottom when COVID began and I had to be isolated. It felt like there was no hope of getting back up. I did practice Wiccan spirituality such as meditation and polytheism, but as many times as I did rituals or meditated to heal my chakras, it never felt truly right for me in that I still had an empty space in me. I did not know that this would damage me as much as it would, as I began to get artist’s block from not feeling fully myself and struggled to figure out themes for my projects.

It was around this time that I met my boyfriend and began a relationship with him. When I first went over to his house, I saw that he had icons that looked similar to something I had studied in AP Art History. I brought it up to him and asked if it was Byzantine, as those icons looked similar to what the empire had. He shook his head, though, and told me that his family is Orthodox Christians. At first, I felt icky and weird about it because of my past experience with Christianity and their belief in a vengeful and hating God. My grandmother was this type of Christian that would use “tough love” from the church to constantly judge me for my sexuality and my interests like colored hair and piercings. But as we cooked mac and cheese together and talked more about it, I began to feel less uncomfortable and more interested about it.

He told me about St. Mary of Egypt, who was a prostitute who would corrupt married men and boys with their lust and desire. This woman, who was like any other person, became a saint because of her devotion to God. The story felt close with me because I was terrified to try and attend their church because of who I am. But when he told me about their God being loving and giving, the importance of meditation and prayer, and being humble with yourself, I fell in love with the idea of it and wanted to go see the church.

I went to my first service around Christmas, and it was enlightening. It felt as if I was on another plane of existence when I was in there, and that my soul was beginning to come at peace. What sealed the deal for me, though, was my first blessing. My friends explained to me how to do it, and I didn’t think much about it at first. I got in line for Communion, and when it was my turn, I did what my friends told me to do and held my hands out to the priest. He put the chalice over my head and recited a few words, and I was instantly struck and flooded with intense emotions—not anger or fear, though, but warm and comforting, as though Someone found the deepest pain and healed it completely. I cried for the rest of the day from that experience, since I never felt that much care before in my entire 17 years.

I finally felt at peace with myself. I’m motivated to do my projects and share my love for art to other people and inspire them. Although I still have my bad days with my mental health, I have been getting more days of being happy and content. I feel like I’ve found who I’m meant to be.

Mr. Maddex: So are we ready for these conversations? Can we handle them in a manner that is reflective of our view of men and women made in the image and likeness of God? It would be easy to simply say, “Sure, why not?” but it may take more intentionality than that. Dr. Edith Humphrey:

Dr. Edith M. Humphrey: I think we are ostrich-like. I think we don’t want to talk about uncomfortable things. After all, this has to do with the passions. It has to do with something that, if it’s not essential, it’s pretty deep in our humanity, that is, our sexuality. I think that, just as the Church needed to struggle in the time of Arius and the expansion of Arianism before it could actually have a good conceptual grasp of Christology, so I think today some deeper thought about the make-up of humanity is essential. The crisis in which we find ourselves regarding all sexuality, not just the same-sex problem, but transgender and all that, is I hope an opportunity for us to be led into deeper truths. I guess this is a job for the teachers and thinkers of the Church, to be thinking about how sexuality is related to who we are as human beings, and I think that we do need some theological reasons that people can be given, not simply prohibitions, “because this is the way the Church has always done it.” But I think that the reasons are there; they just have to be mined. They’re there in Scriptures, they’re there in the Church, and they’re there in the Fathers.

I think also we have embraced a modern, a contemporary view of privacy and of individuality that makes it uncomfortable for us to talk about anything that would be an infringement of rights. And of course we’re in a culture that really gives us a challenge in that area. And so to illumine and to highlight the family nature of the Church and how we bear one another’s burdens, and how we really truly should care about each other is something bigger than just this issue. You have to earn intimacy, and I’m not sure that many of our churches are in a position where we have that kind of intimacy with each other, that, for example, in the early Church, people used to confess outwardly, in the congregations, their sins! We can’t do that today, and maybe in the wisdom of the Church it was good that it went into the confessional with just a priest, because there are some people who aren’t mature enough in the Church.

But surely there’s somewhere in between complete individualism “don’t ask me what I’m doing, and I won’t tell you” and “tell everything to everybody.” And I think that we need very much to be working, as we’re working on understanding these issues and as we’re working on being faithful and understanding what the Fathers and the Scriptures say, and as we listen to those who’ve had experience and either continue to struggle or have been delivered in some measure from this—as we do all that, we have to work on our family disposition on who we are as brothers and sisters in Christ. And those are the kind of things that will make us ready as we look to God, the One who’s made us and has the answers.

Mr. Maddex: And those who fight sexual temptation to the point that it is an out-and-out war against the passions, do we just throw up our hands and say, “What’s the use?” or do we keep trying? Dr. Jeannie Constantinou:

Dr. Jeannie Constantinou: Even if we never conquer that sin, as long as we keep trying, we can be saved. There’s a prayer about that in the Orthodox Church: “As often as you fall, rise again, and you will be saved.” That’s very powerful.

Mr. Maddex: Yeah, I cling to that one.

Dr. Constantinou: Me, too! As often as we sinned, we go to confession. We say, “I’m sorry. I messed up again.” Rise again, and you will be saved—what a wonderful thing! So God doesn’t expect us to be perfect or expect us to conquer, but we have to get up. That means we don’t stay down, and we don’t say, “Well, this is who I am. I just can’t give up getting drunk or getting angry or hitting my wife or having relations with my boyfriend or girlfriend.” We just have to accept that. But if we don’t, then, I’m sorry, we don’t deserve the kingdom of heaven. If we’re not willing to do anything for Jesus Christ, who did everything for us, how can we possibly think that we’re worthy? We’re not worthy even when we try, let alone when we don’t try.

And this notion, silly notion: “Everybody’s going to be in heaven and have eternal life”—how!? How is that even possible? When eternal life is union with God, and the holy cannot be yoked to the unholy. So we have only one thing to do, and that is to try to acquire holiness, sanctification, and that is not through unholy behavior.

Mr. Maddex: So we make the effort, out of love for Christ, because he first loved us. Every human being on the planet is loved by God, and he commands us to love them, too. If I’m honest with myself, I’m too often out of step with the God who made me; I’m too often judging rather than loving, avoiding rather than engaging, trying to form people to my image and expectations rather than God’s. Andrew Williams:

Mr. Williams: The main thing is that whenever we talk to another human person, whatever their faith background, whatever their political beliefs, whatever their cultural background, we’re talking to some other amazing creature made in the image of God, and that person has an immortal soul. And I think it was C.S. Lewis, he said that every interaction you have with another person, you are either pushing them towards becoming a creature so glorious that if you saw it now you’d be tempted to fall down and worship it, or a creature so awful that it’s worse than the stuff of your worst nightmares.

And I think that perhaps when people are caught up with this idea of sexuality as an issue, then it sometimes prevents us from seeing the person, but it’s the person that’s important, not the issue. I think the key is: If we’re afraid of the issue, we’re not trusting God enough. We don’t have to be, like the Calvinists, protecting the sovereignty of God, protecting his Church and protecting his teaching. God is perfectly capable of taking care of himself, as far as I’m concerned. My job is to love each person who’s put in front of me, in the best way I possibly can, knowing everything I know about life and what I’ve learned through following Christ.

Mr. Maddex: If you’ve come to this point in our documentary, having listened to all four our episodes, we want to thank you for your endurance. It tells us you all think it is worth the time to think soberly about these things and try to discern the mind of Christ. And please forgive us if we have offended or scandalized anyone; that, for sure, was not our intention. We all have questions and fears about the direction our society is moving. Let us all be beacons of hope and love by giving each other the benefit of the doubt, believing the best about each other, and not ascribing motives to one another that are unsubstantiated. As society and culture darkens, we need each other now more than ever.

Our thanks to all of the participants in the presentation, including Archbishop Michael, Greg Webb, Eleni Erickson, Margaret, Jennifer, Andrew Williams, Dr. Edith Humphrey, Dr. Jeannie Constantinou, Dr. Philip Mamalakis, Fr. Anthony Perkins, the monk Fr. Gabriel, Fr. Harry Linsinbigler, Fr. Chris Shadid, Dr. Roxanne Louh, Rhys Pasimio, Dr. Al Rossi, and Fr. Thomas Hopko of blessed memory. Original music composed and performed by Natalie Wilson; learn more about Natalie at nwcomposing.com.